As many have already stated, Odin feels stronger than it probably should - especially when compared to Colossus.

So I did some testing, here are the results:

(URL: https://imgur.com/TDZ2AtO)

I was surprised that Odin is able to out-dps HK at max level, and this is without damage upgrades. As you can see, Odin's damage scaling is better than HK as well. Colo has better damage scaling than both, but it takes a while to see the results of this (at +18 damage upgrades, Colo can out-dps Odin).

Of course, that is just vs ground - another concern is Odin's DPS and scaling vs air. Colossus doesn't even have an air attack.

Colossus also has 1200 less HP than Odin, and HP scaling is the same for both (+250 HP/upgrade after the first upgrade, which gives +300 HP).
As a side note, Spectre lash scaling is only +200 per upgrade. Theoretically, both Odin and Colo can eventually gain enough HP to permanently survive lash, though Odin requires 5 fewer upgrades to get to this point.

Finally, Colossus has 3 shield armor and 2 hull armor, while Odin has 7.5 armor. Armor scaling is the same for both (+1 armor/upgrade).

The question is, what should be done about Odin? Does it deserve a blanket nerf to make it more even with Colossus? Or should only certain things be nerfed, and if so, which things? Alternatively, does Colossus deserve a buff?

I've talked to about 20 people so far, and gotten about 20 different opinions. So, I'm curious what you guys think - discuss.

I don't believe Odin needs nerf. Comparing it to Colo isn't exactly a fair comparison considering Colo can walk over walls and kill pretty darn fast too once maxed.

Vultures on the other hand should probably be altered a little

Interesting, you're only the second person so far to say that they believe Odin is fine as is.

I will have to disagree with the idea that Odin/Colo is not a fair comparison. Medivac essentially eliminates the mobility issue - but even if it didn't, Odin just has so much more than Colo does statwise for the exact same cost.

Proposed vulture changes are posted in another thread in the suggestions forum.

I've been playing with odin a lot and against odins a lot and i just dont think its imba

on the other hand ive seen some players that go colo all the time, max it out real quick and then after some dmg ups it starts eating armies really fast. Faster than Odin. So idk

Odin op. Please nerf.

I haven't put too much thought into it other than Odin needs a little bit of a nerf.

Thanks for your hard work akash. It will be nice to see people play with more than just snipers/vultures/dw's. And for those more advanced that always go Odin to have to think about more. As of now Odin is a pretty low risk hero to invest into in my opinion.

I'll think about it and get back to this.

Mat help set up a scrim tonight

Dude I've been so busy its been crazy. I wanna do a few more but I deploy soon then I'll be afk (probably) for about 6 months. I may be on later though.

I personally think that Odin really cannot do much until it is level 7, maybe 6. I have known for a while that maxed Odin is really strong and can really help vs any other hero. And to me that is why it should stay the same, it is actually very helpful in killing Queens and Dark Archons, not OP, still requires some skills to micro and outplay the two. If odin suffers from a nerf, I imagine Queens will become rampant along with the only viable anti-hero being Spectre. Personally, I do not think it is difficult to kill an Odin, but most people are not that great at controlling it.

Colo is actually a bad unit, it could use some love. Odin should be thought about carefully before changes are put in place.

If we think of Odin as being on par with Queen/DTA/Spec (since it can easily tank lash at max level), then what do you think of making its cost similar to those ultimates?

Currently, it costs about 500 minerals less to get a max Odin than an ultimate hero. If we add +75 mineral cost per level, that would pretty much make it even.

What about making it so Nix could lift Odin again but for only half the time of normal units?

This would give the Nix some counterplay to Odin and keep Col and HB with a slight advantage in that respect.

Before sentry hallucinations were taken away for heroes one of the best ways to survive max odin with Nix was to have hallucinations. Now Odin hard hard counters Nix whereas HB and Col don't have any counter play to nix.

As far as scaling, maybe up the lash damage and/or lower the hp scaling on odin/col while giving col a little love.

I think small changes go a long way. It's better to change something small in the right direction than change too much and have completely new unforeseen game dynamics. Not sure if Nix lifting odin (even at half the amount) is too much or too little.

I personally do not think odin needs a nerf or a buff It seems easy to counter with os.

Saying that I do agree that nixes need a minor buff on what they can or cannot lift.

I think nixes are Op. Don't buff them. Those things dont die and are so fast.

Buff mando attack damage against massive heroes.

Odin: Need ground dmg nerf so it doesnt hit ground so hard. It should not feed off ground well. Right now buying it lets you feed off ground armies AND air armies AND counter ravens/DW/medibabes/OS (esp at high levels). Understand that it basically has no cooldown unlike spell casters and is such a good tank too.

Colo: Need some HP buff, and Ragnok beam need slight buff. Too fragile atm and gets countered by so many things... including corruptors and vikings supereasy.

Phoenix: Retain ability to lift ultimate heroes, but make it so the lift time is half the duration. They are real strong atm, you don't even need to max them to counter ultimate heroes, I think they need a nerf. That way you have to chain lift, cause right now its so easy to kill ultimates even in the duration of a single lift.

Mando: Real shit right now, by far the worst it's even been (until it becomes Spectre which is fine). Part of it is because of the bug where Grenades don't level with the hero (see my Bug post). Also Snipe should go back to being instant, right now even if you hit a grenade it's still super hard to pull off a Snipe.

Also mando's auto-attack doesn't deal bonus to Heroic nor Summoned!?

Spectre: I think OK where it is.

HTA: Pretty mediocre right now, WAY too much downtime due to waiting for energy to regen. A level 7 HT has faster energy regen than HTA, the bonus damage isn't worth the energy regen reduction. Make it so it regens energy the same as level 7 HT, or give energy back via Storm (not only HT, only HTA).

DTA: I think OK where it is.

Queen: Need to nerf the speed on creep... pretty OP atm .

+1 to all val started. But take away HK self kill also.