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 Post subject: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 13th, 2018, 10:48 am 
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[TryHrd] RememberMe.983
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I would like to suggest a change for merc marines since they're used so "one-dimensionally"

Usually you see them used for defense during SD and not for offensive drops before SD. People easily glean 150 minerals for a pod and will keep dropping them in SD to "exploit" their 0 supply cost. They last a long time as well. It's a brain dead decision on whether dropping merc marines is a good idea in SD. If you have support tower, and marine tech, you're gonna drop to maintain a supply advantage.

Another thing about marines...sometimes when you go marines and you lose map control due to air i think merc marine drop is a viable way to get around air's presence. However, 750 minerals for a chance could really set you back if it fails... the risk is too high. I would like to see this change and perhaps see more drops in the early to mid game.

Merc marines also scale like elites, any upgrade can increase their stats equally, not half like normal marines. For the cost of 150 minerals and 0 supply, I think this is really strong.

I have some proposed changes:
  • Make merc marines cost 100 minerals, but scale by 10 minerals after each pod dropped. That gives an early entry to drop at any point in the game: to drop someone's compound, or to reinforce during SD. On the other hand, it deters the spam of merc marines late game, but doesn't remove the option.

  • OR Make merc marines cost supply. That'll put an upper bound to your power. This will hurt the drops you use against a merc compound or a CC, but you should be distracting that player or fighting them head on anyways.

  • OR Make merc marines last a shorter duration. They currently last 120 in game seconds (3 minutes or more?). If you need a little more firepower to kill a hero, or to defend in a clutch situation, it should really only last during that engagement. You just gained an advantage if you defended well or sniped a hero, but their use has to stop there. This won't affect early game drops because they don't usually last 3 minutes if defended well.

  • OR Make merc marines cooldown longer. Similar to the shorter cooldown justification

  • Lastly Another possible solution is to limit the number of drops available like turrets or savior at the CC. Players will choose wisely when they want to have their advantage.

All these changes assume all else remains equal.

Also akash, fix their acceleration, they slide.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 13th, 2018, 11:36 am 
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[EsYPsY] sexy.121
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Merc Marines we're added by relic after SD.....I'm just going to add that, and leave the rest to Akash.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 13th, 2018, 12:40 pm 
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[TryHrd] Akash.566
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Interesting points, Pocky, although I have to disagree about the primary use of merc rine drops. I find that I use them most often offensively during SD - for example, trying to take mid or ending the game when I have a lead.

Additionally, I find that if someone is using them fully defensively to survive, they usually lose the game shortly afterwards anyway.

For these reasons, if people think a nerf is needed, I would suggest longer cooldown rather than decreasing strength or limiting the number.

Also, I have to check, but I think their attack scales with rines while armor/hp scales with mercs. Will try to fix acceleration.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 15th, 2018, 1:54 am 
torq.123

Joined: March 31st, 2014, 7:18 am
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I actually really like the idea of increasing cost per 10(or any number that fits balance) per cast and the cheaper start. Not sure how hard that would be to implement but I agree with Pocky that it would make for some more interesting early rine play with drops and make them scale better to SD.

Merc rines after SD should not be about allowing a regular addition to your army, for either offence OR defense. Given the nature of the unit as a one time cost one time reward, they should be balanced around using as a strategical decision of risk/reward. Increased cost per cast would make them less viable to use constantly at SD and more just to use during critical moments.

Also lowering duration probably wouldn't hurt. Particularly when they are being dropped by a melee player, it is likely that they can be alive and dealing damage for their entire duration. Maybe consider a significant decrease in duration down to like 30 seconds. That would put them around the spot where they can easily be dropped to kill heroes/elites/merc compounds and would also be able to last for roughly 1 or 2 fights depending on what types of units are involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 28th, 2018, 8:06 am 
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[TryHrd] RememberMe.983
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97 pods. 3hour game. Please change merc Marine.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 28th, 2018, 5:03 pm 
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[EsYPsY] sexy.121
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The machine has spoke


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 29th, 2018, 7:25 pm 
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[TryHrd] Akash.566
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After observing their usage more closely, especially in the recent 3-hr scrim, I have been convinced that merc rine scaling is fine; however, it is too spammable, especially in the super lategame.

     pocky wrote:
Make merc marines cost 100 minerals, but scale by 10 minerals after each pod dropped. That gives an early entry to drop at any point in the game: to drop someone's compound, or to reinforce during SD. On the other hand, it deters the spam of merc marines late game, but doesn't remove the option.

I think I like this idea best.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 30th, 2018, 6:22 am 
Gardul.1228

Joined: August 30th, 2017, 11:34 am
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Just to outline, here is what the cost structure looks like. Basis here is that you're dropping 5 pods per use:

Use 1 (100, 110, 120, 130, 140) - Total cost = $600

-Cost on merc drops today = $750/drop ($150*5) so first drop is cheaper

Use 2 (150, 160, 170, 180, 190) - Total cost = $850

Use 3 (200, 210, 220, 230, 240) - Total cost = $1,100

Use 4 (250, 260, 270, 280, 290) - Total cost = $1,350

Use 5 (300, 310, 320, 330, 340) - Total cost = $1,600

While late game income isn't really a problem with 2 armies fighting for control of mid and 2 towers held by each, this becomes untenable after probably use 3 as it just is too cost-prohibitive. If you're sinking cost into merc-rine drops, you're not upgrading your army and that's a problem for you as the game progresses.

In my opinion, this is a perfect solution to the OP merc-marine problem, and probably will change how SD plays out completely.

1 suggestion - do not make the cost scale until after SD is active (is that possible?). That way you can still employ merc-marines at $100/each for compound and CC snipes without penalty in the event you're trying to take out a tougher opponent before SD kicks in. If you don't do it by SD, then let the scaling begin. Food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 30th, 2018, 2:48 pm 
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You realize that if you make merc marines bad it will make games even longer since you cannot get mass as quick and it will make a lot of play indecisive and barely any all ins. Sure you can argue that it makes games longer but ultimately if you have the same feed it will be like a normal battle between two merc rines. I like how you can invest into some marines and overpower your enemy for a fight or two. I think maybe make them last a lot less would fix them.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 31st, 2018, 2:12 am 
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I think better way to make SD faster is to make tower and middle income more. Say past 2 hour mark it's 1000minerals a minute in mid and 500 minerals each tower.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 31st, 2018, 8:00 am 
Gardul.1228

Joined: August 30th, 2017, 11:34 am
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     Ice wrote:
I think better way to make SD faster is to make tower and middle income more. Say past 2 hour mark it's 1000minerals a minute in mid and 500 minerals each tower.


I like the idea, but perhaps we can step it up incrementally? I.e. every 10 minutes the income increases by $100 per location held? This way games do have a chance to finish sooner than the 2 hour mark.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 31st, 2018, 10:24 am 
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[EsYPsY] sexy.121
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This has the opposite effect in my experience. EU ma had this and had to revert it. Could work different in us ma tho.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 31st, 2018, 4:40 pm 
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[TryHrd] Relic
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     SeexySauce wrote:
Merc Marines we're added by relic after SD.....I'm just going to add that, and leave the rest to Akash.


Rine drops were in the game since forever. What i added was being able to use them with very limited range after SD. Because, at the time, there was literally no reason to ever use support tower after SD, it was always AU tower every single game for the FF spam and infi scans. It was something to also allow some sort of costly defense should there be a queen/HTA etc wipe of a chunk of your army, and a way to finish games by out mass pushing your opponents if you had sufficient rine tech/money to spare. But this was a while ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: May 31st, 2018, 4:59 pm 
Time.696

Joined: September 4th, 2015, 10:40 pm
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     Relic wrote:
It was something to also allow some sort of costly defense should there be a queen/HTA etc wipe of a chunk of your army, and a way to finish games by out mass pushing your opponents if you had sufficient rine tech/money to spare.


Yes those are certainly some of the key reasons why Merc rines add a nice dynamic element to the game.

But yeah, spamming them late game does seem to be an issue occasionally now days...

     MrPocky wrote:
Make merc marines cost 100 minerals, but scale by 10 minerals after each pod dropped. That gives an early entry to drop at any point in the game: to drop someone's compound, or to reinforce during SD. On the other hand, it deters the spam of merc marines late game, but doesn't remove the option.


I like this idea


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: June 1st, 2018, 1:24 am 
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Hi Relic! Good to see you around ^^

I remember this decision, was in support of it when it was added and still like the fact that merc marines are usable after SD.

Early rine tech is very popular nowadays, especially with the (relatively new) vulture speed boost aura. Could also be a reason that merc rines end up stronger than they used to be. Regardless, cutting the spammability in the ultra late game is probably a good thing, will look into implementation for next.


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: June 1st, 2018, 5:43 am 
Fatalist.608

Joined: December 26th, 2015, 10:51 pm
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Problem is now support tower is a compulsory thing in late game coz if you out massed = you lose
and because merce rine has unique scale, that out scale almost everything in hp and armor, it is so easy to get merce rine with 600+++ hp with 20++ armor
they just won't die to normal units and only counter would be merce rine or ult heroes like dta/hta etc.

Micro said it will make game longer, but i can say if you can control mid, you can control the rest of 2 towers as well. and with more income you can finish opponent easily


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: June 1st, 2018, 5:45 am 
Fatalist.608

Joined: December 26th, 2015, 10:51 pm
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Or just make hp and armor scales same as rine would work.
probably little more hp per ups, but don't make it scales like elite


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 Post subject: Re: Merc marine balance
PostPosted: June 1st, 2018, 7:01 am 
Gardul.1228

Joined: August 30th, 2017, 11:34 am
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     Fatalist wrote:
Or just make hp and armor scales same as rine would work.
probably little more hp per ups, but don't make it scales like elite


Perhaps this is the most simple solution? Just take off the insane scaling that merc-marines have?


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