After raising some questions on the feeding capabilities of mando and nix, I decided to run some tests. Below are the results.
(URL in case image is low quality on TMA: http://i.imgur.com/qzmyJfb.png)

Feeding capability was measured based on DPS.

As you can see, a base mando is better than 2 base reapers, and a level 4 mando is better than 3 max level reapers. It takes a little more to beat vikings (levels 4 and 5).
The BC autoattack is trash compared to base mando, although yamato deals 400 damage with 50 AoE, for 2000 burst AoE damage. If we assume this happens about once per minute, the real BC damage output is about 7.5k per minute. In that same minute, a base mando deals about 6.4k damage, and a level 1 mando deals about 7.7k damage.
In short, 1 mando level outfeeds a BC.
Unsieged tanks will basically always outfeed mando.

The nix story is even more ridiculous, beating all max level elites listed right out of the box.

The HK numbers are deceptive - don't forget that they kill themselves as they attack and are hard countered by mando, nix, and spec. I didn't post DT numbers, which as you would expect are insane (base DT has 100 dmg per swipe, with splash), but DT's are also hard countered by mando, nix, and spec, as well as scanning and obs.
The point is, mando and nix never have to stop attacking, while DT and HK do.

The elites I listed here are pretty much the main autoattack elites that people use in that manner (ghost and sentry, for example, were excluded).

Let's also not forget mando line-snipe which kills anywhere from 5-15 units per shot, and the nix lift ability that can AoE lift half of the opponent's army. Spec also has AoE stun.

Conclusion: Mando and nix are OP denial, and a team with both can deny anything. Additionally, they feed WAY too well, given their roles as OP denial.

Suggestion: Pretty obvious, nerf their DPS, and nerf it hard. They shouldn't be able to outfeed anything. :C

how are the upgrades on the reapers (the special upgrades)<--by that i meant which one are you getting first should have been clearer

also you cant look at raw dps because reapers shoot fast and light attacks while com hits hard and slow, meaning com will overkill much more frequently and thus waste a lot more dps

bc isnt meant to feed by autoattack anyway, so that metric is meaningless.

nix dps is garbage, honestly with something that costs 750 you should be comparing it to colossus or odin. With the change to lift nix is worthless anyway, i dont see why you would nerf it.

i never see you try mando anyway, and to be honest after the changes i havent seen anyone other than myself use it correctly thus far. your conclusion is based on a levelled com...which if you actually try in game you will lose. you just dont level your commando with the intention of feeding on army or you flat out lose.

people get dt for a different role than for dps - they get it for the stun, so you cant try to compare the feeding capability here. if you get it for dps then you are relying on your opponents not scanning, which means they are pubs, which also means you will likely win regardless of what you do.

i think you are biased against anti-hero heroes

When I say elite "levels", I am talking about the "special upgrades"/"cc elite ups"/"trainings" which are listed in the spreadsheet. The only change not listed is movespeed, which the second upgrade (nitro packs) buffs.

You certainly can look at raw DPS to estimate feeding capability. The factors that matter are DPS and survivability, but all of the units shown here have high range (mando, reap, tank, viking), high HP (BC), or hardened shield (nix). Base rines, for example, would not work by this metric, since they die super fast to everything.

I understand your concern about reapers dealing a lot of light damage, but consider that armor counters them much better than it counters mando. No test will ever be exact, everything is situational, but I believe DPS is a good estimate, along with time spent attacking.

Yes, as I mentioned, "BC autoattack is trash compared to base mando, although..." etc. etc. I only mentioned it since someone said BC always outfeeds mando, which isn't true imo.

Nix DPS is not garbage, and that is the problem I want to address here; it should be garbage and it is not. I suggest you look at the spreadsheet again, as it does significant damage.

"I never see you try mando" is pretty funny, especially coming from you, . I have tried every strategy I have ever heard about, and I use many different strategies every time I play. Usually, I won't even use the same strategy twice in one day. I am fully aware that it is not a good idea to straight-level any hero; that's not the point here.

As for DT, I said "DT's are also hard countered by mando, nix, and spec, as well as scanning and obs". Their DPS and time spent attacking does matter, unless you are telling me that DT is purely meant to be a short stun, and that the only point of leveling it is to increase the duration and AoE of that stun.

I don't think I am biased against anti-hero heroes, but I do think that you are biased in favor of commando.

Holy poop those mando numbers. Nix numbers are pretty bs to calculate like this, they have decent splash but overkill like no other.

I no longer think reaps are op. I figured theyd beat out viks in dps for sure, and crush mando hard. TBH thats more telling about mando being op than reaps being UP.



Also Lumina, dont defend mando. It doesnt overkill in any significant way. It is not a projectile based auto attack, so the autos will not overkill like raiders or nix. The only overkill it does is hitting already low units for over the damage that they need to kill things, which is minimal. You compare it to reapers, which attack fast with weak auto attacks, but forget that that means they are much much weaker to armor. 1 armor vs mando=-1 damage. 1 armor vs reaps =-6 damage.

I agreed that com needed to be toned down a few months ago when it had emp. right now its honestly not that great, its just that i play it so much that i can make it work. grenade is a bigger step down than it needed to be from emp, and the whole snipe vs summoned thing is a mess, especially since the damage on snipe is now ~1.5 autoattacks on non-summoned. point here is that I really dont think i am biased against commando after i was in favor of the nerf previously.

Although if we were to lower com autoattack and fix up snipe and grenade a little bit that would probably work.

idk i just dont like nixes because overall they just are not viable anymore. you put any amount of money into them and someone just gets something unliftable and you straight up cant fight them anymore. and sure the numbers say that, but what gerpums said also translates very well into a real game - you dont see the kill counts on nixes being nearly as high as other similarly levelled heroes.

i did not forget armor, it just doesnt actually play that big of a role here because we are talking about reapers in particular, which dont see much use late game anyway. early game, nobody gets armor, so that is not a factor.

i said that dt is not meant for dps, which doesnt translate into what you said in that the dps doesnt matter. dps on dt is only secondary. no one buys dt and expects to get multiple swipes off on non-pub marines.

and i really have never seen you use commando . with regard to the leveling, you misunderstand in that you say it's a bad idea to straight level any hero. that is not what i meant. commando in its current state should not be levelled AT ALL, unless there is a very good reason to (killing enemy army is not a good reason). every one of these reasons have to do with enemy heros, but since we are discussing anti-army capability, in this situation we need to consider com at level 0. c most of the time if you level it at all, sure your chart shows the extra dps, but you will lose the game regardless because you are pretty much throwing out that money.

side note about vikings, its pretty interesting that they dont see more use with their numbers so high

My main point here is that mando and nix have DPS on par with autoattack focused elites, whose main roles are dealing extra damage. It's not fair for denial units to have such DPS.

Mando and nix should be reactive units, not blind openers that simply work regardless of whether or not something they counter is on the field. If you have a mando or nix with no heroes on the field, you should immediately receive a huge, almost game-losing disadvantage, and that's simply not the case right now.

So yeah, I know you're not supposed to level commando without a reason - that's how it should be. The main thing about mando and nix that's not how it should be is the fact that they feed as well as, or in some cases better than elites whose main purpose is feeding on armies.

There are teams that blindly open both mando and nix with 0 heroes on the field, and there are teams that even use mid/lategame mando+nix as a comeback mechanism with 0 heroes on the field. That shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Why have you never seen me use mando? Simple - you've never seen me play against colo, odin, HB, or an ultimate hero in a situation where I didn't already have something else planned to deal with these units.

To say it once again clearly because it seems people still don't get it: if you go mando or nix with no heroes on the field, you should lose the game.
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Now to address the reason why vikings aren't used as often as reapers. It mostly has to do with cost and safety. Most so-called "pros" prefer "safe" units. I was going to write this part in the original post, but decided against it since it isn't strictly mando/nix related. I guess I'll add it to this post then.
Safe units are units that give you some advantage without having many drawbacks. For example, reapers are safe since they have long range, high speed, and cliff jump, as well as the facts that they are cheap to make and don't give much bounty when killed. They are also not a huge commitment - you can basically still go any merc, any marine upgrade path, or any hero after opening reapers and scouting out the field. Their flashbang ability makes them relevant into the mid/lategame if you keep them alive.
One interesting thing to note about reapers is their high heroic damage compared to vikings. Not as high as tanks, but still relatively insane. In this way, they function partially as denial in addition to feeding well.
In fact, I would argue that reapers, ghosts, mandos, nixes, corruptors, ravens, vultures, medis, and tanks are currently the safest units in MA. You may recognize some of these units as the ones "pros" use most often, and also as the units I think are boring :P
Vikings have more of a drawback than reapers since they lack mobility on the ground and it takes time to switch to air mode. They are also more expensive and give more bounty when killed. And they don't have an ability that translates to lategame use. Still, they are relatively safe compared to most things, just not as safe as the units I listed.

Edit because I didn't give any examples of unsafe/risky things. The spellcaster heroes are a huge commitment (ht/fest), as are early merc choices like opening stalker, hydra, or concussive marauders. Melee and air are also big risks. DT is somewhere in the middle, since it has vp utility in almost any situation but its damage is often easily denied. And the riskiest of all imo is probably rushing HB, as that strategy is pretty much all-in.

Id say viks are less popular not because of safety, they are very safe with the flying mode. Its their speed. You cant chase stuff down, harass armies or kite well with viks slow ground speed.

I tried out commando for the first time last night, I got it to level 1, and my ally was going 100% odin.

By the time his Odin was level 4 I clicked on the his odin, with around 290 kills, my level 1 commando had around 300 kills by that time.

Commando is very good

I don't really have all that much of a problem with pheonix or Mando. I mean the one major point of complaint is not that the pheonix dps is to high, but rather it's almost impossible to kill a pheonix at any point.

Odin is actually best counter to Nix

The post isn't about counters.. notice what he said - if a team opens with either mando or nix, they'll feed really well given their DPS. This was even backed up by MrStabby's comment about his level 1 mando out-feeding a level 4 thor.

Additionally, as also outlined the most lethal hero combo in the game appears to be Mando+Nix because of their shut-down abilities AND glorious feeding abilities. I used to open ghost for elite denial (read BC - pub elite unit of choice), but I now blind open Mando most games and get better results - in most cases never really even upping the mando unless someone else is going haywire with a hero on me.

(Note again how broken the summoned tag is - Spec can't lash without multiple attack ups the following units with a handful of ups on them: HKs, Tass, Mando, DT, and non-summoned Elites. How is that even remotely sensible? )