I personally am not a fan of how Odin sits in current meta. It largely completely shuts down air, farms very well off ground and is very safe given its long range excessive tank. With all that, all you have to do is A-move it. I think it would be fun to revamp Odin to be a little more hands on and rewarding to micro while less efficient if not. I have a couple idea's that I think could work well with this. Haven't spent a great deal of time thinking it out but my initial thought is to nerf aa range, damage, and splash, keep ground about the same. Add 2 active abilities. One a slow moving large volley of missiles that does high initial damage then channels for lesser damage over time. Second you could add something similar to reaper jump for cliffs but has a cooldown.

Basic idea behind this is Odin can't just A move air. But with his volley he can deal lots of damage if it isn't avoided and effectively zone. More importantly not just zoning simply by being on the map but from active use. The cliff jump could make for fun harass but with the cooldown it would be risky to use. Also a good way to corner air on sides. But once again risky because of cooldown.

Any suggestions for improvements on ideas more then welcome this was just a thought I had looking to see if others agree.

Yeah ice has been reking with it, please Nerf it to the ground, and warps op. Me and fata would like maraider to have blink also, that's all.

Have been thinking about nerfing autoattack stats and giving it an ability. It's currently the only hero with no ability.

Odin has suffered enough recently don't you think? I really do not think Odin is overpowered, it's strong vs air sure,(As it should be) but so is Battlecruiser.

Queen basically hard counters Odin, Dark Archon wrecks Odin, Spectre wrecks Odin, High Templar out feeds Odin, HK's outfeed Odin, Pheonix can kill Odin now. Odin is an investment, to get to max level, it is a huge mineral dump that doesn't go into an army. With all the good players in the game now, they just simply have to counter Odin, and with control they will.

Most people just go air, and don't do anything to try to react to Odin.

I agree I do not think odin should be nerfed since as stabby said people who go air dont really try to counter it. I can think of a list of counters to odin that are not heroes, OS, BC (Can tank dmg from the odin) and Ravens.

I don't really think it's OP, just think it would be cool to give it a useful ability (not nuke, which doesn't even make sense ). Something like the cyclone anti-air ability, which would deal splash. And then a small stat nerf to keep it around the same strength it is atm.

Just an idea, idk. Discussion encouraged!

raven doesn't really counter odin imo. 2 pdds doesn't buy enough of an opportunity for air to get close. OS doesn't counter odin either... the odin can still attack right? or is attacks disabled as well. if so i gotta start using it

odin has 9 shots per atk, and since pdd nerfed, 2 pdd only able to hold like 3 shots from odin.
even more if odin's army has projectile.
AND odin has FREAKING 13 range, you can hit tower from mid. that is insane

Listen to fata, he smart man. And how the hell does os counter odin? Lol I don't think you guys have played vs a good Odin player . Raven and os don't work, sure a DA does, but that's 6k minerals vs 1k same with spec. Like that range everyone knows is op 13? Like come on now haha.

Also are forgetting the fact that even if you do somehow manage to stun/incapacitate Odin, your air army will still take 30 seconds to kill it. Odin farms EXTREMELY well even without air on the field. HK might out farm it situationally, but definitely not HT. Hk are far easier to kill then Odin. If you try to tank an Odin with a BC you are just gonna have a dead bc. I don't want Odin nerfed to an oblivion but it really should require some ability micro or something other then just A move destruction.

The range probably is the most OP single stat on it. You can't even kite it. If Odin is mid and their ally is down by the ramp you can't attack their ally from far side without getting hit by Odin. The splash is also a little ridiculous. I'd like to see damage stay high because it def should be capable of killing air fast. Just not so much of it from so far and so safely.

Assuming both players are around the same bounty:
-If you void an odin to get air odin you will not be able to do any significant damage to it by the time void is over then you are sitting on top of their army and their odin. Same applies to OS. If you drop pdd they will be expired before your army even closes the distance. Most the popular units atm minus snipers have projectile attacks anyways that will make them largely instantly pop. Bc to counter odin simply not a viable option.. Commando is very strong against odin, but does not at all work well with air armies. You can try to keep it with your ally but thats managing an air army that takes a lot of attention plus a mando that can be some distance away. You can put it in a medi but that also requires a lot of well done micro and skill, specially if you are playing against a similarly skilled opponent. In addition there is that fact that you just spent 1600+400+300x3 on your air and 500 on your mando with a total of 3400 minerals to counter 750..... In pubs it is easy to just find someone else to fight but in scrims soon as someone goes air you see 2 or 3 odins coming out very shortly after.

My overall thoughts on how it should be balanced is that assuming both players are of similar skill and score the army with the Odin should generally come out on top. But it should be a contested battle not a decisive victory off the bat. Not so different then mando countering a ht or festor. Mando is strong against them but if played well with feedback/leach, positioning, and attention you can come out on top.

I have not played MA a great deal lately and most the games I have, have all been scrims so my insight isn't perfect. I do think however, regardless of current balance and all that other shenanigans, Odin could be revamped to have some fun new abilities that could spice things up a bit in MA.

I completely agree with you TORQ, changing units would keep MA fresh and fun. But do you think the Odin is the correct place to start? I can think of a handful of units, and mercenaries that could be changed and cause a more significant impact on the flow of games.

Odin should be able to counter air as we can all agree. But let us not forget, if you go air, and complain about being countered by one "Good Odin Player" then you are playing air wrong. Air is strong because of the fast movement and you basically get to pick every engagement you want.

So avoid the Odin person. Granted sometimes this is impossible, they can apply pressure on you and keep you at bay. Go fight the other team, pick different engagements and try to use air differently.

Why doesn't nuke make sense? It's fun and perfect for putting pressure on turtles

Some neat Odin ideas might be to lower it's health, make it a glass cannon. But give it a sprint ability. So it can still fight, but once the ability is activated, it runs at a certain % faster for a short duration.

Or giving it an anti air mode. Once activated it can only attack anti air, and when in ground mode, it only hits ground units.

Stabby I agree somewhat with the fight other players in pubs. But I havn't been playing pubs much, scrims you usually see multiple Odins and likely will have one on either side of you. I guess whether MA should be balanced to scrims is a whole different conversation. As far as best units to change, I do find Odin to be at the top of that list due to it having no abilities (nuke doesn't count) and just being an A-move hero.

Ignoring whether people think Odin is balanced vs air, I would be interested to hear what people think would be fun/fitting abilities that you could add to it.

I think it’s pretty balanced atm with the wide variety of counters available. Even commie is pretty good at significantly weakening odin and forcing it away with a much smaller investment. That said, as long as its overall utility remains the same, I think it would be cool to have it serve a more active role with abilities.

In scrims there is only one good Odin player these days the rest can be easily outplayed with air. I also don't think Odin is where we should put our concerns since colossus is much worse since it is countered by basically everything early game.

And guys "How does OS counter Odin?" You can contaminate the medi then kill it and block the Odin escape route then your ally can come in and help you. It makes it almost impossible to overextend with Odin.

That whole thing made no sense. "It's almost impossible to overextend with Odin" like what? It has 13 range man....

How will it get to the tower if there is no medi becomes useless for 30 seconds at a time....... Also huge investment for one team that goes air.

I have rarely ever had or seen arguments with MA players about balance where opinions have changed. Let's just change the focus to what abilities would be fun if we were to add abilities. I find the fact that Odin is boring and A move to be less likable then anything to do with its balance against air.

Keep in mind that if you think base stats should stay the same then any added abilities should have some sort of draw back, like immobility or as someone said before forcing to only attack air or ground.

If there is enough interest and Akash has the time to endow us with some badass dev work, we can always play some games in test-map to give feed back for stats. I assume that's much easier to change then adding new abilities.

Did a little testing on Odin vs air in different match-ups. Not the most exciting watch but if you are interested it's there.

Summary of what I found.
- Odin w/ no upgraded merc goes in favor of the air long as the air is split. Odin rofl stomps if you don't split. This is assuming both armies are same value. Odin upgraded to similar value of total cost of air army.
-Odin w/ merc that given air type is strong against without (did this to test best circumstance for air, obviously if he has a merc that counters you AND an Odin he should absolutely smash you(Used goliath, brutalisk, destroyer, and lancer)) Without merc ups on ground merc, it favors the air unless you picked wraith. After you get merc ups to ground merc it favors Ground/Odin. As upgrades are added to both sides equally, the gap grows in favor of the team with the Odin.
-Wraiths do extremely well against lancers, better then any of the other air types do against the merc they counter.
-As far as the air mercs fighting the odin directly, Voids do best by far, then scouts. Mutalisks are some amount worse then scouts and wraiths are the worst.

On all tests with mercs added I did some fairly heavy spreading of the air and no micro to the ground army. The air was spread to a degree that you would likely not be able to achieve in an actual game.

Side note it takes 8 seconds to spawn air merc station but scouts take 2 seconds. Intentional?

Interesting, glad you did some testing. My thoughts, after reading:

-In the last few patches, lancers were slightly nerfed vs air, and wraiths were buffed overall. I guess that accounts for the strength in that matchup.

-Voids have +Heroic damage, makes sense that they do well vs Odin. This isn't something I added, has been that way for a long time.

-The scout merc base time is likely a bug, will check it out.

-You are correct that changing stats is much easier than adding new abilities, although I'm willing to add abilities given enough time. Life's been busy lately, hoping I can at least patch some bugs by end of March.

Try stun medi with os when there is odin around
gg 300 mineral for 30s disable ability

The helps if there is a spec out there, but otherwise it doesn't stop the Odin from rampaging against Air. Plus the OS will likely take a ton of dmg on the way in since Odin's range is stupid long. If you go air, the only defense (outside of mando) against Odin right now is Nix. The fact that you can chain-lift an Odin (with an upgraded Nix) means GG, but that's a helluva investment to get to where you're able to chain-lift.
Early nix doesn't chain, so only lvl 5+ Nix works.

Speaking of Nix, if you lose one, the revive time is ridiculous and if you lose 2, they spawn 1 at a time. Since there are 2 it should work like HKs do. You revive at the same time if you've lost more than one. Cost is fine, but the revive time is what's ridiculous and the fact it only kicks out one at a time.

I believe upgraded contaminate lasts 12 seconds, unless it's bugged.

In the game even you countered by someone you can still managed to fight if get good position or use combination of hero/elite
like sniper fighting bruta or raider
raider fight lancer etc

but odin vs air? no chance for air to kill odin given they are similar skill / bounty
no chance of having good engagement at all. Look away for 1 s then 500 supply gone in 1 hit. gg air

Contaminate sure, but not root. It doesn't stop the Odin from firing for 12 seconds (or am I the one that's confused???). Since the changes to OS, it's not been a viable counter to Odin anymore. It helps with Queen, Archon, DA, Spec, HB, and even HKs (prevents burrow) but doesn't stop the Odin or the Colo from rampaging for more than a few seconds.

AA is not an "ability" so you can disable the abilities on the Odin all you want but that just stops it from being put into a medi, and launching a Nuke. Try to use an OS to counter an Odin and you're toast.

Ah that's not what i meant, just replying to this:
Medi would be disabled from healing/dropping/lifting for 12 seconds rather than 30